yuki_onna

Preach on, sistah!

Largely because there's still a significant percentage of the population who adhere to a Dr. Dobsian view of gender and sexuality?

So we should play to them, despite the fact that by and large they are not the main consumers of burlesque?

Are men such delicate hothouse flowers now that they can't show a little skin when our skin has been currency for millenia?

*WILD APPLAUSE*

So well-put. Thank you.

Are you really asking 'what's going on here'? I would be a lot more sympathetic to the comments about the exclusive male gaze in these burlesque shows... if everybody (men, and SO MANY women) did not constantly express mild disapproval or revulsion at the male body. How many times have you heard the sentiment "I find the female body beautiful, but the male, not so much?" even from mostly straight girls? How many times have you uttered it yourself?

I came to the realization that much of what I found unattractive about men was the shame with which they treated their own bodies while demanding access to mine and then judging it by rigid standards they did not themselves meet. That is a shit dynamic.

But then I started dating this guy who had practically no body issues of any kind, and I realized how hot men really are when they're not furtively comparing themselves to other men or practicing a carefully studied stoic-warrior-I'm-so-straight-you-could-build-a-fence-out-of-me act. Funny thing, that. You should meet this guy. ;)

I have feelings that way myself, but I suspect it's because I so rarely see the male body presented as beautiful. From birth onward I'm offered images of the female body, but if I see men presented as objects to be viewed, it's only ever from the waist up.

If we saw more parity in representation, then I bet you perceptions would change. Not immediately, but in time.

And that my dear, is why you have never dated a bad boy. HA!

Seriously though I think there a few different things at work here. First, the law; I don't know what it is in regards to male nudity on stage, the law is often different in regard to each gender. Second, boys don't generally want to show off their bits unless they're fully tumescent (I useded a fancy werd) as penii are pretty uninteresting in their flaccid state. And it might be offensive to the other performers to be bumping up against hard cocks. Third, given the time-period-related nature of the 'con they may have wanted to do something more traditional (I wasn't there so I dunno) rather than try to be cutting edge.

It wasn't a traditional style show at all, so that's not the issue, and law or not it was a closed event and no one would have said shit.

Now, the tumescence issue is an interesting one. I find them interesting even flaccid, but if that's really the issue, then let men do some single-person bits, as several girls did. Then hardness is presented solely for our titillation, bumps no one, and if it doesn't exist, whatever, it's hard to maintain an erection, I would think, while dancing.

At least show a little bum.

What, again?

*shrug*

Okay.

Hm? If I'm totally off-base you can take me to a burlesque that has boys and girls taking their clothes off equally.

Well, I have a few thoughts on this (great post, btw). The first is that burlesque is essential an anachronistic art form that has recently been dusted off and brought back by a whole bunch of sex-positive people. Although the shows are put on for a more enlightened audience and by more enlightened performers, the bones are still those of an art form rooted in a more andro-sexual-centric world. In order to become truly egalitarian, whole new songs and skits would have to be composed by people who understand the need to balance the equation.

The second thought is that even in this world of metrosexuality and pride, there is still a very strong streak of homophobia running throughout the male population. While women are free to enjoy watching other women without having to defend their sexuality, there are still too many men out there who feel that other men (and women) will look at them suspiciously if they view another naked male with anything other than disgust.

Unfortunately, the way men's sexuality is marketed also has a polarizing effect. If women are "lucky", they can go to a strip club with male performers, like Chippendale's, where they can ogle bouncing man-flesh alongside every young squealing bride-to-be and her entourage in the vicinity. Alternately, men can go to gay bars and watch hot young things paw their crotches on the bar for tips (of course, women can and do go to gay bars, but men never go to Chippendales). There's not a whole lot of grey area, i.e. male bodies presented sexually but not targeted to a specific audience. I find this is true in art, as well, with the possible exception of some photography.

I think in order to address this discrepancy, men need to take the lead in creating burlesque that celebrates them as sexual creatures. Maybe they need a little help....

whole new songs and skits would have to be composed by people who understand the need to balance the equation.

Most of these were pretty new stuff compared to old burlesque--a whole lot of girl on girl and gender-bending. (though only for the girls)

Who do we write to?

Um. Wait. I know! Because the culture hates men. Hates us. Tells us from the word go that we're disposable, that our needs don't matter, and the only way to be safe is to undergo a sort of bonsai of the soul in which we're constrained to a rough camaraderie and rage.

The idea that our sexuality could be something besides a shameful joke (much less celebrated) is actually profoundly subversive. For most men I know, the idea that they could be sexually attractive is half drowned in images of the kind of man they would have to change into for that to be even sort of possible.

And while we are now far enough in the process to have third wave feminists, we still have sweet FA for even a first wave men's movement that's worthy of the name.

If you haven't picked a copy of Self-Made Man by Norah Vincent, it's an interesting ride.



Okay, there's a much longer version of this I'll crank out again sometime. Or ask Tim Pratt. He's heard the whole thing.

Except, wait. Ah hell...



"Are men such delicate hothouse flowers now that they can't show a little skin when our skin has been currency for millenia?"

Would you think less of us if we were? Why would you greet our shame, self-hatred, and alienation from our own bodies with contempt?



I gotta go pick up my daughter from the sitter or I'll be here all night.

All apologies if I've offended.

For most men I know, the idea that they could be sexually attractive is half drowned in images of the kind of man they would have to change into for that to be even sort of possible.

That goes for women, too, you know.

And I do not greet it with contempt. However, the men involved volunteered to be in a burlesque show. That implies a level of self-comfort and sexual eagerness that I don't really expect to then see inverted, denied, made fun of, and held back from the audience because of the structure of the show. These men are not hothouse flowers--they have no trouble whacking away at the ass of a woman onstage. None of this is said with contempt. It is said with desire.

AMEN to this.
It's the most clearly put
analysis of this situation
that I've read in a long long
time. You should get this published,
in a newspaper, or some more public
viewing forum. Get these words out.

May I recommend the amazingly wonderful Bearlesque? It's a playful piece that's also deeply sexy and joyous and funny, too.

Not that that single piece is enough to invalidate or cure all the problems you mention. It's not. But there's at least one guy in the Bay Area who is willing to dance all but naked for an audience -- and have a hell of a time doing so. It's a step up.

For the record: Steven is a friend of mine, so I probably downplayed the sexiness in the review I wrote. (That dynamic deserves some analysis.)

Also for the record: Yes, MsLorelei is me, too. I've published my sexual books under the name Lorelei.

Amen.

Re: the competence = sexy thing- there's a guy friend of mine who I pretty much started thinking of as a sexual creature/wanting because of watching him play DDR. He's normally your standard awkward skinny white guy, but he starts playing DDR and suddenly it's like he's just now started to fill his whole body. Totally hot to see, just sad that most guys don't have that level of comfort-in-self ever.

Why is it that while women's bodies and sexuality are on cheerful display, the men in burlesque are buttoned up, often in full three piece suits?

I suspect it's because we tend to look better in our three-piece suits than our birthday ones. Especially if we're hairy and out of shape.

I would bet you money that you look much, much hotter naked than you think you do.

I'm with you. Take the clothes off, fellas! Men's bodies are hot hot hot hawt.

I especially like the bum. :D

Male bodies are beautiful - especially older, hairy, overweight ones. Yeah I know my taste in men is in the vast and underwhelming minority, but major sucks to American culture for disagreeing!

But seriously ... I haven't ever even heard of a burlesque show that involved men. I thought it was an all-female thing historically and currently. Including men within the review is done today? In more than just Salon con's show?

Sure--most of the burlesque I've seen features men in this role.

now, the only strip club I have ever gone to featured male performers. I dunno.. while I admit to finding men hawt, usually it involves them wearing clothes. Maybe if the burlesque involved some old school fashions, or men wearing the same outfits as tehs ladies... really, those woman-sexy outfits tend to be sexy, I think, whatever body they're on.

There's a guy at Saloncon who always goes in a corset and it is something to see, let me tell you.

TAKE YOUR FUCKING CLOTHES OFF, GUYS.

When I got to this line, all I could think of was Alan Cumming in Cabaret, wearing just suspender, pants, and bowtie.

I love you so much right now.

I always love you. ;)

BTW -- very tangential to this, but I wanted to invite you over to my most recent post, as I suspect you're one of several people I know who could take my anonymous commenter's statement to pieces with one hand tied behind your back.

Will go over once I get my fightin' mitts on.

This was forwarded to me, so I am not entirely sure who this is. But as co-director and emcee of the White Elephant Burlesque Society's performance at SalonCon, I was urged to respond.

In short: our performances never reflect all of burlesque, how anyone "should" view burlesque, nor can it possibly encapsulate every message that burlesque holds for you, your friends, or my own cast. But we're trying!

I wanted to respond to a few points in specific, namely being: why were no guys getting naked?

You noted that no women got naked, either. This was both a comfort issue for our group at a fairly looseform convention as well as the regulation of the organization itself. Deb, the organizer, was very specific in our performing a "PG-13" show. If you, or any of the other participants at SalonCon, would like to see a raunchier, less "censored" version of burlesque, than I urge you to tell Deb. It will only be through affirmation of the populace that Deb will know that anyone even wants us to "go there," that the audience is interested in it at all, and that she won't be forced to downsize her audience (and therefore her revenue) if she does make it a specifically more adult affair. I respect Deb's decision, as I do any organizer's anywhere else, and the only thing that I can suggest is that if you want that spirit of burlesque involved, you say "hey, I'd like to attend a more R-rated performance." That doesn't have to mean porn on stage, but we weren't actually allowed to wear even thongs at the performance. It was the location, not the spirit of burlesque, that was "bending to social norms."

That said, we are not strippers. Our group is pretty homegrown and taking time out of day jobs and other social ventures to be a part of the group. There will not be a time (in the forseeable future) where the White Elephants will get completely nude. It's not our act, it's not our gimmick, and it's not what we were hired for.

As for the men in general, I understand. As a gay man, few things give me pleasure as much as a naked man dancing about. It's hot. I think we're on the same wavelength on that. Again, it was not appropriate for the venue nor was it appropriate for our troupe.

I don't want you to think, though, that we only have men taking it off for laughs. The men we had were appropriate for their characters: a hobo, a clown, a ventriloquist, a suited gentleman, and me (the emcee, pretty covered in make-up). The hobos removed their ragged clothes for more elegant affair, and the others did NOT remove their clothes. At most, I showed some belly. The focus of that particular show was all about the ladies. We don't perform the exact same thing every night (or ever, really), so you never know what you'll see. I do appreciate the nod and approval towards the male form; perhaps we were concerned at the moment about making sure the women of all sizes got their due and didn't think too much about the men. One barrier at a time, perhaps.

I will say that as a co-director in charge of a mostly female cast, I could give a fuck about the straight man. I am very much aware of the stereotypical penchant for lesbian sex, but even that's not my concern. My concern is making sure people can work together on stage, in sync. With much respect to my players, a lot of the best sync belongs to the women of WEBS, and while it coincidentally it appeals to the heteromale, they are not our target audience. Most heteromale stereotypes want the vulva, want the breast. We do the tease, the illusion, and the comical interpretation. Women appreciate that. So perhaps that will always be our target market (if not at our next gig: a male-oriented rock show), the bisexual woman. I thank you in reminding me that the bisexual woman ALSO LIKES COCK. It's sometimes unfortunately easy to forget.

While I can't promise ass (and certainly not cock) at the next SalonCon (the former's up to Deb, the latter's just not going to happen), I see your point and I will try to incorporate a more balanced performance next time.

All this aside, I hope you were entertained regardless, and that you will come see us again sometime.

--George Blair IV,
Director & Emcee of the White Elephant Burlesque Society
http://www.weburlesque.net

I recognize this is hardly the point of your eloquent words, Mr. Blair, but...

...you mean, if I tell WEBS that they can "go further", and I put them in the 18+ area, they'll potentially "go further"? I honestly did not know that. I'm not necessarily looking for nudity or partial nudity; but my interest, as (almost)always, is in pushing barriers and breaking down boundaries.

I was pointed in the direction of this post by a close friend and felt compelled to respond, both because you’re talking about the troupe I’m co-director of and because you touched on something I, as a bisexual woman, have been frustrated by.

At SalonCon I got to watch this burlesque show--I really enjoy burlesque, and it was awesome. Lots of girls of admirably different sizes, lots of great, sexy skit-type things.

First, thank you for the compliment. Specifically the one about women of “admirably different sizes”, which directly has to do with the type of show we put on for at least SalonCon. As a co-director, it makes me very happy to receive praise and constructive criticism of our shows. I think both are necessary for us to improve as performers.

Short history: I’m in a Rocky Horror cast in NJ. Last year, Deb asked me to assemble women from that cast, who were of “admirably different sizes” for a Burlesque revue to show that they (we) were all sexy. That was the focus and the request from the event organizer, so that’s what we aimed for. I brought George in for his experience with music and theatre and the knowledge that we work incredibly well together. Fast forward to this year. George and I wanted this Burlesque group we’d assembled to be more than one shot visitors from our Rocky cast. So, we set about creating the White Elephant Burlesque Society. And for SalonCon, again, we were mostly trying to create a neo-Burlesque revue about the ladies, and specifically all sizes of women.

I certainly don't mean to harp on the Saloncon group, because they were great and made such an effort with the kink and the queer--which is why I don't understand their treatment of men.

Thank you again for the compliment; we did try to include more kinky and queer elements in our acts. As George said, we’re a new troupe and taking down one barrier at a time is a job enough. I think it comes down mostly to our roots being in a female-performance requested show. Bringing guys more to the forefront this year was a totally new experience for us and we’re evolving with every performance. We certainly never set out to demean the male form, nor make it out just for laughs. In one of our comical pieces, where the hobos strip to reveal classier clothing, the man and the woman were both totally covered in both sets of their outfits because we felt it was appropriate for the characters and the song. You get the thrill of a strip, but it’s subverted, addressing a Marxist theory of the proletariat turning into the bourgeoisie. If we only had the guy in a three piece suit and his female dance partner in rumba panties and pasties, I think it would’ve been quite anti-male in the way you speak about.

Basically, the tradition is obviously changing and part of that reinvention is examining why things weren’t done before, if they can be done now and how. This calls into question the desire for change, and the ability and willingness of those performing to affect that change. Clearly, there is a need to bring more men into the Burlesque strip as more people, like you, stand up and say that they want to see it. If there’s demand and appreciation, then we at least are more very willing to take that into consideration and incorporate it into our acts.

I think part of the problem is that not enough people are saying this. Plenty of people are saying they wanna see the women take off their clothes, but not enough people are saying they want to see the men do the same. I think it’s another thing, like larger women being sexy and taking off their clothes, that’s going to take some time and reinforcement of desire and marketability.

As George said, we do “the tease, the illusions, the comical interpretation” and considering the word Burlesque means ,”a humorous and provocative stage show featuring slapstick humor, comic skits, bawdy songs, striptease acts, and a scantily clad female chorus,” I think we’re doing fairly good job so far. And like I said, we’re constantly evolving and look for feedback to help direct our growth. We’re also paying close attention to trends we see in other Burlesque performances to see what’s going on and what people want.

Recently, I was at Margaret Cho’s “Sensuous Woman” Burlesque Revue. Obviously, this show was going to heavily feature the female form; it's in the name, after all! However, there were also men. Only one man did a strip, though and only one review I’ve read so far wanted to know why? Again, I think the question of why there hasn’t been more of a crossover of Chippendales and Gypsy Rose Lee hasn’t been asked nearly enough, and certainly not vocally enough to affect that change right away. But between people like you and the reviewer, who were in audiences and wanted more male flesh bared and said so, and people like me and George and Margaret Cho who have the ability to stage a show that incorporates that, I think you’ll be seeing more men shaking their bare derrieres in the future. I just can’t guarantee how near it’ll be. We’ll certainly take it into consideration and work on it, though.

-Genevieve
www.weburlesque.net

There is a whole discussion here that I completely missed. I was just coming over to congratulate you on teh EW review.

I was actually thinking of this when I saw http://www.partyhardcore.com which has the basic scenario of male strippers getting undressed for drunk women who eventually rip their clothes off and have sex with them. I am happy to say that that site seriously objectifies men; except in the fact that it gives me a complex about how little I've been working out (and I look good now.)

Not surprisingly they also have an all male site (because really, male strippers who are straight? Who believes that?) and a bisexual site which don't appeal to me but you might like. If you like porn. And who doesn't like porn.

Ah, the things I don't say to people I see every day.